The Brand Purpose Pivot w/Samuel Monnie
Laura Jones (00:18)
Hey everyone, welcome back to Opinion Party, the podcast where we take a new fresh look at the most pervasive myths in marketing and examine them through the cruel lens of data. I'm your co-host, Laura Jones.
Jason Gaikowski (00:34)
I'm Jason Gaikowski.
Laura Jones (00:35)
And today we're tackling the topic of the brand purpose pivot. Jason, let's kick this off. We're to get right into it. What's your purpose, man? Yeah.
Jason Gaikowski (00:48)
My purpose?
Well, I mean, just jumped on my LinkedIn and you're gonna find that my purpose is to rehumanize the business of business. Pretty abstract, but wordy, wordy word words. So, look, I'm excited about this topic. I can't wait to dig in a little bit with Samuel. I think purpose is a really, really interesting topic for marketing and marketers.
Laura Jones (00:59)
Wordy word words. I love it. What does that mean?
Jason Gaikowski (01:17)
As you know, I was client side for a few years and we absolutely built brands, built business, created categories. And it was very much a purpose driven industry and a purpose driven company. That said, the data is kind of here and there on purpose, right? Like on one side, we've seen enormous growth, a thousand fold growth in B corporations.
There's now more than 6,000 B Corps registered representing hundreds of categories across 80 companies. That's groovy. We see capital flows into ESG funds continuing to grow at a really, really rapid pace. flows into ESG funds has gone north of $53 trillion, representing about one third
Laura Jones (01:44)
Yeah.
Yeah.
Jason Gaikowski (02:13)
of all invested capital. Super, super interesting. There's been some really, really interesting research that shows that purpose-driven and ESG-driven corporations outperform their peers over five and 10-year time horizons. And even when it comes to brand value, an analysis showed that purpose-driven firms grow their brand value at a rate of 150 % plus.
Laura Jones (02:15)
Wow.
Jason Gaikowski (02:42)
of their non-purpose driven peers. Right? Super, super interesting.
Laura Jones (02:47)
Sounds like a great case for purpose. What's the catch, Jason?
Jason Gaikowski (02:50)
Great paper.
Well, I mean, you know, let's talk about Unilever, who under the previous CEO was very much a leader in the marketplace, an evangelist and champion for purpose, right? They made it a policy across their entire brand portfolio that all of their brands should be purpose driven. you know, Dove is a kind of obvious and notable example of the success that has followed from that. Yet.
In the past several years and under the new CEO, they've really softened that commitment and they've taken a perspective that purpose may be right for some brands. Purpose isn't necessarily a magic bullet for all brands. And I think when we look at our BAV data, there's in fact a case to be made that purpose may not be a silver bullet. When you look at
how purpose correlates to strength, you see a kind of positive differentiation. But interestingly enough, the correlation to differentiation is not what I would have assumed it would be. The correlation to differentiation is only slightly more than half of the correlation to brand strength. What you actually see in the data is that the purpose perceptions
most strongly correlate with esteem, which as you and I both know, tends to be a bit of a lagging indicator. And while we do see that there is a nice statistical relationship between purpose and usage, interesting, there is far less of a correlation to purpose and preference. So when we look at the data, I think that
Laura Jones (04:23)
Absolutely.
Hmm.
Jason Gaikowski (04:45)
I think that's a little bit unclear. think that there's still much to be learned in this arena. I think that there's enough evidence in the world that purpose is at least worth evaluating. And that for many brands, it can be a winning strategy, but may not be a silver bullet for every brand.
Laura Jones (05:06)
Yeah, and that's so fascinating what we're seeing in the data. And you're saying the purpose-driven attributes correlating more with what we would refer to as stature than strength, because those are metrics of current operating value. almost by definition, purpose is very visionary, is very future-focused, is very change-oriented, right? So there is a bit of a disconnect there for sure. And I wonder, you know,
Jason Gaikowski (05:28)
Yeah.
Laura Jones (05:32)
Maybe, and I can't wait to bring Samuel on because we will definitely have some more point of view and data on this. Maybe we're just not measuring it right. Maybe there's something about people's actions, people's intentions, and just the intangibility and the uncertainty of the future that maybe people aren't visionary enough to, maybe companies are not visionary enough to really recognize and communicate purpose. So think there's a lot to unpack here.
And yeah, I'm excited to dive in. Any last bits of knowledge before we bring Samuel on?
Jason Gaikowski (06:08)
You know, I think your hypothesis is a fair one. And what we do see in the data is that super leadership brands like Microsoft and Google score high for purpose. But of course, they score high for everything. Interestingly enough, when you go and look at some of the brands that come first to mind as purpose-driven brands, Patagonia, Ben and Jerry's, right, classic examples.
Laura Jones (06:20)
Mm.
Yep.
Jason Gaikowski (06:37)
those brands don't have the level of strength and the level of stature that I might have thought. So it might be that purpose is a strategy that gets you from good to great, but it may not be the strategy that gets you from great to super leadership. I don't know. I think there's a ton to learn here. I can't wait to dig in with
Laura Jones (06:57)
Hmm.
Jason Gaikowski (07:01)
And let's get this party started, Laura. Let's get the party started.
Laura Jones (07:04)
Yeah,
absolutely. Samuel Monnie, Purpose Hive Co-CEO, welcome to Opinion Party. I'm gonna be so excited. Yeah, let's give everyone a little bit of your expertise, your background. Samuel Monnie was a reform marketer, but is now a marketing reformer. His words.
Samuel Monnie (07:18)
Thanks for having me. I'm excited to be here.
Laura Jones (07:33)
Brilliant. He's going to trademark them. And is Purpose Hive co-founder and co-CEO, which is a strategic brand purpose consultancy. So we've got the right guest on the podcast for the topic today. Okay. He's the former SVP of revenue for sustainable brands. And he's got lots of experience at all of these big companies. We're talking about purpose-driven P &G, Campbell's, where actually we had the good fortune of meeting on a client project.
Jason Gaikowski (07:36)
So jealous.
Laura Jones (08:03)
Grainger and Safeway. He is actually a fellow marketing podcast co-host. He's co-host of the Marketing Transform podcast, and he's also an adjunct professor at DePaul University where he's taught international business and brand strategy. Fun facts, he's from the UK of Ghanaian heritage. He's lived in Germany and Switzerland and now resides in the NYC area.
and he's an avid fan of Manchester United Football Club. Connoisseur of Indian food and always ensures music is within earshot. So again, Samuel, happy to have you at the party. And let's just kick it off. Let's get right into it. I'm curious, what initially inspired you to champion purpose and purpose-driven growth in the corporate world that seemingly, you you've spent a lot of time in that often prioritizes profit over purpose?
Samuel Monnie (08:41)
Okay.
Yeah, I think, throughout my marketing career, I've been one of my superpowers, which I know is not the question you asked me, but I'm to tell you anyway. One of my superpowers is curiosity. So I've always been, what's that? So that the, if you listen to my, my bio, you like what he's done, what he's lived, where, and the story of my life is, Ooh, what's that? Where is that? Why, why shouldn't I go? Why shouldn't I do that? Or what, what's going on there? So I think with curiosity comes.
great responsibility. Because if you're curious, you got to follow up on that itch or that question or that observation or that confusion or I don't get it. It's like, let me learn more or why do they do that? Let me go find out. So you know, for example, earlier in my life, earlier in my career, I went to Northern Ireland and I studied there and everyone told me because this was during the troubles, don't go to Northern Ireland. It's scary. It's like, told me not to go. Now I have to go. So I went and studied there for years. It wonderful. So
The worst thing you can do is tell me not to do something or question it because that piques the curiosity. So I think as a marketer, I've always been invested in raising the bar. I did a lot of work in marketing capabilities I've taught as an adjunct. And the beauty of learning and knowledge is that you kind of find out more things and you have to sort of progress and you have to go forward. And so with that purpose was one of those areas where in business, and if you look at business,
the last 30 or so years of capitalism has taught you that this is the way, but that's not always been the way of business. And so the founders of a lot of the industrial companies that we know today, like Lifebuoy, the soap companies, all these, people were dying of bad hygiene. So they created soap as a solution to stop the bad hygiene and guess what? That's why soap exists. So.
things like soap have always been purposeful because they were there to stop people dying. And so when people say, just focus on the profit and the business, well, why do you create the product in the first place? And so I've got a bunch more stories that can bring that to life, but I think purpose has always been there. And now the question is, what do we mean by purpose? How do we define it? and I have a definition which I can share shortly, but I think that's why purpose has always been there, but now it's gone from sort of behind the scenes sort of
you know, just aiding into, aha, this is an unlock that helps us towards a flourishing future.
Laura Jones (11:25)
Yeah, and I've always loved that about you, Samuel. Every time we have a conversation or I say, huh, where did that come from? You're such a great, almost archeologist of, or anthropologist of history and of going all the way back to the source. And that can oftentimes lead to just things that were always right there in front of our eyes, but everyone kind of lost sight of. You know, as I mentioned, Samuel's a,
Samuel Monnie (11:37)
Yeah, I like that.
Laura Jones (11:53)
former and current podcast and podcast host. And he's just asked himself the next question, because that was my next question, which is how do you define brand purpose and why is it crucial for modern business?
Jason Gaikowski (12:00)
You
Samuel Monnie (12:04)
Wow, what a great
question. Who shows this again? OK, so the way I define brand purposes, the thesis is that business organizations can have a positive impact on humanity and nature while making a profit simultaneously. So that's it. Positive impact, humanity, nature, and planet, if you want to add that in, while being profitable simultaneously, which means it's not either or, it's and.
Now I know that if you're a non-profit, then change the word profit for revenue or money coming in. That's basically why you're there. And so whether it's accessibility, biodiversity, women's rights, gun safety, ethical AI, sustainability, DEI, all of those things can be done while being profitable at the same time. And there are a bunch of brands, companies, organizations doing that. so
Get on the train, join this movement to raise the bar and yes, make money and also have that positive impact on your immediate audience, your community and the world at large. It is possible, it's doable. We should do it to get us to where we need to be. And there is, I mean, that was great listening into some of the data and evidence being shown. I've, you know, we've all got evidence and data points to say why purpose is important or why.
folks can do it. you know, maybe we can share some of the examples that I'm passionate about that I would say support the case.
Laura Jones (13:37)
Yeah, please,
please do so. Yeah, because I would say, and yet, right? All of those things that you have mentioned and why it makes sense for people, profit, planet, and it can be a win-win mutual benefit, of that bunches of stats, and yet, we're still having this debate, right? And so what are some of the examples?
Jason Gaikowski (13:42)
Ha ha ha.
Samuel Monnie (13:50)
Mm-hmm.
Laura Jones (14:00)
you know, to add into that mix as to companies that are doing it well. what have they gotten right? What are they seeing that everyone else is kind of missing the point on?
Samuel Monnie (14:10)
Well,
I think we should start with just what are some data points that are true with evidence and supporting. So if you think of a brand like Ben & Jerry's, which is used a lot and you could argue what has ice cream got to do with anything good. And the founders were, I think from Vermont and they were part of this movement and they had these ideals and values that they just infused in their business.
things, their values that they deem important, they just, you know, argue in favor for and support and want others to at least know about them and participate. Now you could argue, how purposeful are you being or how active, how much of an activist are you if you're eating ice cream on your sofa? However, they have brought in dairy free products into the portfolio and they're just trying to get us to be more conscious. And I was looking at their site the other day and I'm going to
Just gonna look at my screen, because I captured this data. So after the election in the US, when we're recording this, the data says that 76 % of people support LGBTQ rights, 70 % support taking action on climate change, 60 % support stronger gun laws, and 85 % of Americans support access to abortion. So if the data is, you can argue some of the numbers, but those are pretty robust in terms of the majority of people support these things.
So they're just saying, hey, we support this, let's get on with it. It's not partisan, it's not political, it's most people. So when you have data that suggests most people, not, as I say, 76%, three quarters of people support LGBTQ rights, then having a stance on this is not controversial. It's not picking a side, it's not being political, it's actually just doing and representing and advocating for what is essentially what most people want. And I think that's where people get...
get lost or mistaken. does the evidence say? This is called opinion party. So if I'm telling you three quarters of people agree on something, now you may not like it, but it doesn't change the fact. And also as an organization, then you should have confidence. And I know some do and some don't, but what is the data? What do your audiences want? What are you good at? What does the world need? What can you make? These are some of the questions you can ask yourself as a business or brand before you start doing purpose. And I think a lot of...
you know, so I Ben Jerry's, which is probably safe territory. As an example, I can give you a few more. there's actually another another organization I'm a huge fan of, it's they're called, it's called Plantega. Plantega is essentially a brand that supports plant based ingredients in deli sandwiches. And they have
Laura Jones (16:36)
Hehehe.
Samuel Monnie (16:57)
launched in the New York City area and they basically work with the bodegas. Now bodegas have an issue because they're under threat from other retailers and they're in local communities. And so bodega owners are looking for revenue, right? So this is like, we need stuff to help us make more money. And Plantega brings this menu items of plant-based deli sandwiches, which are delicious. And the chorizo wrap, delicious. And so I'm eating this chorizo wrap going,
Laura Jones (17:22)
Hmm
Samuel Monnie (17:26)
Why do I need a proper chorizo I like, cause this is delete what's in here? So if it's delicious, then I will eat it and people will buy it. And so you've got something that is delicious. is meeting a commercial need, business need of an organized of, of a community of a bunch of communities and better for planet and better for the world. So that's purpose and profit. That's delicious and revenue. It's not either or it's just both. And so the idea that purpose is a compromise.
or lesser than or a trade down or even more expensive is not always the case. It's often not the case. And so when you, just going to bring it examples of brands that are, you know, the proof that purpose works and there is an abundance of them. So I'm focusing more on what purpose is and examples of what, what works versus trying to defend, the, the attacks on purpose.
Laura Jones (18:22)
Yeah.
Jason Gaikowski (18:22)
There's
a couple of things here, Samuel, that I really love, very consistent with my work. When you look at the evolution of business, and you go even pre-industrial revolution, excuse me, pre-industrial revolution, the only reason business ever evolved in the first place, specialization and trade, the early, early origins of business.
Samuel Monnie (18:27)
Thank you.
Mm-hmm.
Jason Gaikowski (18:50)
is about solving problems that improve the human condition. When you look at the pattern time and time time again, almost every business got invented to solve a specific problem that made people's lives easier and better. And that happens all the way through the Industrial Revolution. And what I observe in the world now is that businesses and brands tend to succeed to some degree or another
either by improving the human experience or by exploiting human vulnerability. Right? Let's call it predatory lending. Let's call it addictive products with very clear and consequential negative health effects. Right? So think there's something interesting about this duality of pathways to success. I expect you're familiar with Michael Porter's work. And he argues, in my estimation, quite convincingly.
that business is very well suited to address social problems and social change. Because by generating a profit, it allows you to scale, right? And I think these are really, really compelling pieces of evidence to support purpose.
And yet. And yet.
Samuel Monnie (20:05)
and yet.
Jason Gaikowski (20:10)
Bud Light invests in some communications to be supportive and more inclusive of a marginalized community. And things for them go horribly awry. What do we, what do we think's going on there? I'd love to, I'd love to kind of get your take on why that seemingly purpose driven step generated what certainly to them was wildly unexpected.
Samuel Monnie (20:28)
Okay.
Mmm.
Jason Gaikowski (20:40)
negative effects.
Samuel Monnie (20:42)
So here is what I'll say is bad marketing is bad marketing. Bad idea is a bad idea. Bad creative is bad creative. this probably will go globally. for me, there is like, see the Bud Light example, which was there were issues with the execution and the choice and how it was portrayed and then the statement. So I think that was a compromised execution, should we say. And then the
you know, the wherewithal to kind of stand behind what they did and then it didn't. So it just created this, this spiral of doom. let's just say that was, cause obviously I've just started off this with data about supporting LGBTQ rights. Most people agree. So the, the values of supporting that community should not be, is unwavering from, from my side, though the what and the how were problems. But I think bad marketing is bad marketing and
My frustration is that there seems to be this thing where people are poking and complaining about purpose. Now we all live in the US and I think there are three other tyrannies. The tyrannies of the clickbait bad digital ads that you get when you mistakenly press a button on a website and then it takes you to this site. That should be stamped out. The awful used car dealership ads that you see on Sundays on TV, they are an abomination. Why is no one protesting?
and boycotting them. And of course, the legal lawyers billboard ads that you see driving up and down the highway, which are horrendous. No one is protesting the bill, the bad billboards. And they're not saying cancel or billboards or the Chicago sorry to the sports fans here, Chicago White Sox. I was looking at this major league baseball team. They won 40 games, they won 25 % of the games. I was like, cancel baseball. Baseball is awful because one team suck in playing the sport.
They, know, you still have the world series, you still carry on playing. So there seems to be this vitriol against purpose, yet Margaret Rudkin, who was she? So I worked for Campbell's Soup, Campbell's own Pepperidge Farm. Pepperidge Farm is the bakery brand. Margaret Rudkin's son had allergies and was suffering from asthma and allergies and the food exacerbated the problem. So she was trying to solve this problem and she came up with baking bread.
And this bread that her son ate did not cause any negative reaction. In fact, it was claimed that it was healthy. It helped his condition so much so that everyone wanted this bread that Margaret was baking. And that's what led to the founding of Pepperidge Farm Bread. Because her son had allergies, couldn't eat the food. She needed to solve because the medical profession couldn't solve it. So to your point as to the reason behind
Pepperidge farm. That's why Margaret Rudkin was the entrepreneur that she was and made the bread. So this bread was because her son had a problem. So often, as you said, there are good, meritorious reasons. And so the reason I define purpose about positive impact, because yes, we know that the brain can be hacked. Humanity can be sucked into a vortex of negativity. So you can design products to exploit people. You can build products that exploit the planet, right? That are extractive and damaging and harmful.
So the idea of the more sustainable practices, the better for you, better for planet, reusable materials, repairable products and services, returnable, recyclable. All of these things are because you can either, you can exploit people or the resources and we need to stop doing that. And having purpose means that you think about your packaging, you think about your supply chain, you think about the wages that you pay people. There's a brand called Piñatex
which was, think the Dole company was part of that. So basically pineapples, pineapple farmers, they don't get paid for all the fruit that they make because a lot of it is the skin and all that. And that's all waste and that's thrown away. But not if you repurpose that material into a fabric called Piñatex which yes, it's not fully biodegradable because of the way they treat it, but you take that waste and you repurpose it into a vegan leather because there's a bunch of people who won't
Laura Jones (24:36)
Mmm.
Samuel Monnie (24:53)
buy real leather because they're against animal harm and animal cruelty. You turn this waste into something that can actually be commercialized into a fabric. The farmer gets paid more because now their waste is a value. The waste is not just thrown into landfill or whatever. The waste is turned into a commercial product that you sell for a profit. So think about things that were waste. There's a brewing company, their name's gone from me, but basically they...
they take all the yeast, yeast is a byproduct for a lot of processes. They take the yeast and basically people pay to throw away this surplus. So they take it for free and that's their free raw ingredient to make a plant-based product that they're now commercializing. So basically other people's waste is their treasures. So we can always think about innovation and think of it in a more purposeful way. We can think about challenges.
and infused purpose to solve the problem. We can think about inequities and think about how we pay the farmer more fairly, not, but solve the problem without it being charitable. Well, let's turn that waste product into something we can repurpose. So, okay, that's at least a four minute soapbox moment. I put it to you, M'lad and M'lady, to the judge.
Laura Jones (26:09)
Well, you know, I loved everything you said and the one observation of all of the P words that we just mentioned that I think bears repeating is product. And, you know, back to the Bud Light example, let's look at the data again. Sales of light beer are declining. Customer and people's...
preferences have changed, right? So not only is purpose something, know, bad marketing is bad marketing and creative is bad creative, but you can't just throw a campaign or a strategy on top of a product with a fundamental, you know, challenge in the marketplace and expect purpose to be the thing that changes. And in fact,
That in contrast with the Pepperidge Farm example that you shared, which I love, I'm I am a mom of a daughter with food allergies and you know, that one hits really close to home is like, nobody with food allergies is negatively, nobody without food allergies is negatively affected by having a superior product, but it can be so much more inclusive to bring people with food allergies. And I think that's really also another
know, byproduct of great purpose driven business building, right, is bringing other people along on the journey.
Samuel Monnie (27:29)
Mm-hmm.
Absolutely,
absolutely. the phrase that I think I stole this from Mark Pritchard, who's a chief brand officer at P &G is purpose should be built in not bolted on or in the case of bread, it should be baked in not bolted on. Sorry, I couldn't resist that. That's a dad joke for everyone. I'm not a parent, but I'm very good at dad jokes. purpose needs to be built into what you do and
Laura Jones (27:45)
Mm-hmm.
Jason Gaikowski (27:50)
You
I love dad jokes.
Samuel Monnie (28:00)
an example, now I'm going to, this is opinion party, so I'm just going to bring everyday examples. So for example, in New York, you'll see that a lot of streets have the like the curved edge. the, the, you can, you can, the streets sort of, I don't know, there's an indentation so that you can roll up the curve. It's the curb is not fully flush all the way through. Now you may think, wow, that's, you know, this wokeism, they're making all the curbs lower. So for people with disabilities and
Jason Gaikowski (28:05)
Bring it.
Laura Jones (28:05)
Bring it.
Samuel Monnie (28:29)
you know, how many people are there? The biggest user of those are delivery people, right? Because they have to wheel it stuff in and out of their, of those stores and bodegas and all these things. So everyone uses the ramp, not just people who need to use the ramp. The ramp is not lowering the bar. The ramp is not causing inconvenience. It's better for everyone. So to your point of food that is better for folks who have allergies, it is also for everyone. There's a restaurant chain called Le Botaniste, organic plant-based meals.
food that they create. And as I, you if people look at me, you don't get this physique if you're shy of food. So I love to eat. a carnivore, but La Botaniste is one of the, this is the first restaurant, organic plant-based. I walk in, smells delicious. I walk out, I have my meal and I'm full. And I don't think, I wish there was a bit of chicken or I wish there was a bit of beef in there because it is delicious. And so I don't need, you don't need to be vegan.
in order to benefit from this product or this service or this offering.
Laura Jones (29:33)
Yeah, I think the inclusive design, is, Microsoft was one of the biggest champions of that. you know, that goes to another, my next question, right, my examination of purpose through the lens of, you know, is, you know, progress versus perfection, right? In an ideal world, purpose is built from the ground up. It is baked in, it is on the business plan.
Samuel Monnie (29:58)
Mm-hmm.
Laura Jones (30:02)
And that's great for companies that have started in this kind of post-purpose world the last 10 years, all the rise of B Corps. But what happens if you're a legacy brand? How can you maybe seemingly take a brand that's gone so far away from its purpose and do tell that in an authentic and meaningful way? Do you think it's possible?
Samuel Monnie (30:08)
Mm-hmm.
think it's possible, you've got to think about, you know, what does, what can you do? What is, what is authentic to you? What are your, what are your values as an organization? What do you care about and what can you be held accountable for? So that's a starting point. What do your audiences, another thing is what do your audiences care about your stakeholders, your people or employees? What do they care about? What does the world need and what can you do? So those are some fundamental questions that you can ask yourself, but I have found
certainly the companies I've worked at. I'd mentioned Pepperidge Farms. So I worked for Campbell's Soup. Jim Dorrance, James Dorrance was the creator of Condensed Soup. Now, this was not so long after the company was founded, it created Condensed Soup. And what Condensed Soup did was provide, was to condense the soup, take the water out and provide an affordable product for a growing urban
society. So made soup as a product affordable to more people. Condensing the soup in today's world is reducing its footprint. And by definition is a more environmentally sustainable proposition than regular soup. You're taking the water out, you don't have to transport the water everywhere. And they put the soup in a can, which is recyclable. it is inherently
and a solution for a problem that exists today. Now, I answer your question with another example to say, what if the core origins of your proposition already has sustainability? Now, I'm like, this sounds crazy, but because I was at Campbell's and no one ever, I don't know, they still don't tell the story. No one listens to me. I don't know why, but what if the core value proposition of what you do actually fits what I'm talking about? It's already there. And so often people just don't know the history. Go talk to the archivist.
Laura Jones (32:05)
Hmm.
Samuel Monnie (32:22)
or go talk to the historians on brands. I know the Archivist at Coca-Cola and what they used to do is they had their carriers for the Coke was waxed, was paper or cardboard and waxed so it was more durable and reusable. it was like, wait, so in the olden days, they just said, this will last longer if I use the organic material and put wax on it.
So indigenous wisdom often has answers to stuff. So his history of brands and products. So often they just need to go look in their archives, go look in their history, and then decide that there is nothing there. But more often than not, they will find these little nuggets and these little examples of things that were done for the right reason or done in the right way. I know some of the first soup flavors had okra in them.
And that's because that's a crop that grew back in whenever they started doing it. And now it's like okra super cool, this super super food or super vegetable. And I don't know why you wouldn't do okra today because okra was an original ingredient for those soups. So I think people should look at their history and look at their archives and just do a bit of research on their brand, their business, their founder, where they started, why they did it.
And more often than not, they'll find a kernel of opportunity, something interesting that could hopefully help them springboard to doing it more in the future.
Laura Jones (33:52)
Amazing.
Jason Gaikowski (33:52)
Yeah,
I've had very similar experiences and lot of success with client organizations saying, let's look at your origin story. Let's look at your history. Like, let's really evaluate where you come from and more importantly, why you came to be in the first place. Right? And so I happen to currently be working with a children's hospital. Of course, a children's hospital almost by definition is purpose driven.
Samuel Monnie (34:04)
Mm-hmm.
Jason Gaikowski (34:21)
but they've run up against a limitation, right? The medicine is fit for children. The overall healthcare experience is not, right? And I think that there's, I think there's something very challenging for organizations where there's been a high focus on efficiency and a high focus on financialization.
Samuel Monnie (34:28)
Right. Right.
Mm-hmm.
Jason Gaikowski (34:48)
in that organizations really, really have a hard time when the costs are easy to count, but the benefits are hard to measure.
Samuel Monnie (34:58)
Right.
Jason Gaikowski (35:00)
Right? And so I wonder what thoughts you might have around most effective measurement of this thing called purpose.
Laura Jones (35:07)
Mmm.
Samuel Monnie (35:09)
Well,
this is where I am a huge fan of the BAV and I started talking to Laura because there's an itch now, a new itch I'm scratching, but before I get to the measurement answer, my new modern five P's of marketing are people, planet, progress, purpose, and prosperity. And I say that because people, planet, progress, purpose, prosperity.
I was the person who would say stuff in the meeting and people would start rolling around. There he goes again. Because when you talk about prosperity, it forces you to think about the human being. think to think about the community as well as the financial impact. If you're a CFO, you want to know that you can get the ingredients that for your, your, your vegetables, your soup, if you just go back to the soup example, you want to make sure that you can get your ingredients for your tomatoes and all these things. So if climate change is going to cause supply issues,
You don't like that risk as a CFO. That's a problem. I don't like that answer. My costs are going up or I can't fill the supply. So a CFO cares about the prosperity stuff, the planet stuff, the people stuff. If you create an environment at work where people don't feel safe and they belong, 74 % of... So measurement is the question. I would say measure different things. So one of the things that I started researching is what measures should we think about?
What I've learned is that 74 % of employees at Deloitte are Gen Zs and millennials. We look at that organization, they have a lot of efforts in the space of purpose. They have programs supporting purpose and they recognize their people and they advocate for purposeful actions because three quarters of your employees care about meaning and...
and the values at work. And if you don't do it, you won't keep them. So this is a recruitment, retention, advancement people. They just can't and won't get the talent unless they do purpose and they bring it to life in a meaningful way. So I would say as much as you're measuring product and sales and performance in the marketplace, I would measure internal factors. I don't, you know, I'm now jumping and making different associations. But the other thing I saw is that from Gallup is that only a third of people are engaged at work.
So two thirds of people aren't engaged at work. I repeat, two thirds are not. And apparently that's worth $2 trillion. So I would do a bit of purpose because if it's worth a $2 trillion problem of disengaged people, I'd try purpose. And if it works great, if it doesn't work. But if that's the magnitude of the problem, then wouldn't you want meaning? Wouldn't you want greater motivation? Wouldn't you want greater engagement?
Laura Jones (37:35)
Wow.
Samuel Monnie (37:52)
by finding ways to do this and purpose absolutely brings that. And so for me, there's as much an internal stakeholder. That's why the people part of my five P's is so critical because it's the people who buy stuff, but it's the people who work for you. I mean, there's so much evidence and stats there. know, HR departments, I think love purpose because it's not, hey, let's hit our numbers. It's let's create a place that you want to be at and...
with people that you trust and you want to collaborate with, that you want to stay at, and you want to do good work for so that the burger I get doesn't have stuff missing or the patient experience in healthcare isn't terrible because they treat me as a people. So those are other measures that I would actually consider.
Laura Jones (38:40)
Samuel, I think that we just got to the second half of the episode name, which is why you might be missing the point. And the point I think that many marketers and business people are missing is that there's a business case for purpose and that you need to build that business case and you need to follow the money. You need to chase the scale.
You need to understand the marketplace dynamics beyond the marketing and really make sure that that is built in and widely socialized, understood. And it sounds like it can be a bit of a negotiation, right? So what are your tips for people that want to bring more purpose driven
Samuel Monnie (39:18)
Mm-hmm.
Laura Jones (39:25)
work into the organization? What have you seen people get right? What have you seen that in your own career that gets the eye rolls that you've changed tact? It sounds like you just gave a great example with the CFO, but how can we help our listeners kind of cut to the chase, avoid the pitfalls and get right into making purpose happen?
Samuel Monnie (39:45)
I think I echoed some of that earlier with it starts with people. think for me, until the algorithms and the AI and robots take over, we are ultimately working in the world of work of people and you wanna feel good, you wanna feel valued, you wanna feel that what you do matters. And so I would start with just...
internally. You know, I keep coming back to some of the internal drivers of organizations, such as their recruitment and their retention processes, employee policies for health care and, you know, paternity leave and all these things. There's lots of things that companies and businesses do that impact people. And I would start there because the more you humanize this, the more you find ways
I think to find solutions. And also I think the other thing is for a lot of organizations, it's who are you trying to serve? And I use that word choicefully, right? So who are you serving? Not selling to... I also, another bugbear of mine in this industry is the language of marketing. And so I have now, that's why I call myself a marketing reformer, right? I was a reform marketer because...
The word customer, I hate the word consumer because it means I produce you consume. And you're like this, right? This, this singular entity that just does what I give you. And if you, don't like the words, the word citizen is might be better, but in the polarized world, people like, you know, non-citizens citizens. But if you think, if you humanize that information, how might you think and how might you have more empathy with people? So.
If I'm looking for reasons to drive purpose, I always humanize it. I always bring it back to storytelling. I always try and infuse empathy and feelings into the experience, the conversation, the story or the data, because I think the bias in the world of work is to quant, is to numbers, is to, you know, hard financial drivers. But if you start...
personalizing things and personifying things and humanizing things. I think it gives more aperture for people to be more receptive to the power and the principles and the opportunity of purpose. I've kind of somewhat s swerved your answer because I don't want to make it a rational, here's your list of seven things, right? Because that goes back to again, the rational and the reasons and the logic. And for me, let's get to...
Laura Jones (42:16)
Mmm.
Samuel Monnie (42:23)
Like what inspires you? What do you care about? What is a good experience? Tell me about a brand that's treated you well or tell me about you. Just get into more some of the core And I think that opens up aperture for more opportunities just on a human level before you get into some of the, I mean, I think the harder stuff. that's, I don't know if that's the smart way of answering the question, but.
I would also say continue to just to look at the world and opportunity. So there was a case study I just learned about recently. Vaseline in Thailand have produced a product called Pro Derma. And that's targeting for the trans community. It was made by and with the trans community. So folks going through the transition, they have skin challenges, skin conditions, and they've come up with a product with and for that community. There's a large number of trans
folks in Thailand. There's a five year distribution agreement with the company called Watson. So it was done in a way that was with their communities, with their customers or their people who buy from them, really listening and understanding what they need and then coming up with a solution, which ultimately was a commercial proposition of a product. But it was serving with and for a community that ultimately is going to be in stores for five years and make money. So there is a way of doing this.
in a, I think, more virtuous way than the old way of doing things. So I kind of try and tell stories and show examples so that you have to feel a bit more than you think about purpose.
Laura Jones (44:03)
Dare we say, bring a little bit more opinion to the party, sounds like. Yes.
Samuel Monnie (44:08)
But it's always evidence-based though. So there's always an example. I just told
you story of a business with a five-year roadmap of a product that's been commercialized, that's differentiated in the marketplace, that is, you know, got full market, you know, you can do all the rational stuff as well, but that isn't an evidence-based example of why you're losing sales because your competitor is actually understanding its audience and fulfilling them in a more purposeful way. And when...
The competitor now sees, look, there's a $5 million, $10 million business that they're not part of. That might get their attention, which is more rational. But the start of it, I think the core of it, is vested in humanity for the win. I'm always backing humanity. The anti-purpose people, I don't know why you argue against purpose. It's like, you want humanity and nature to lose? I don't get it.
Jason Gaikowski (44:55)
I tell you what I think what I'm hearing and what I've certainly observed is that so many organizations are really, really good at thinking about the economics of business and really, really not great at thinking about the empathy of business. I love me some alliteration, so I'm going to talk about both empathy and economics.
Samuel Monnie (45:08)
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Jason Gaikowski (45:22)
You know, like I also see that there's an awful lot of business that like the great empathy, but they're horrible at economics. Right. And, certainly what I've observed is when you marry the two in a purpose-based business, then you really have an opportunity to create some runway and some traction. Right. So as an example, in a healthcare environment, there is a metric that tracks the number of people who check into an emergency department.
Samuel Monnie (45:33)
Mm-hmm.
Jason Gaikowski (45:52)
and leave without being seen. It is the instinct of healthcare to talk about lost care opportunities. Deeply empathic, right? But they have a hard time translating those lost care opportunities to the number of dollars of revenue being lost in a year, which then makes it difficult for them to get the funding necessary to attack the problem, right? And so I wonder if like the real secret to driving
Samuel Monnie (45:53)
you
Jason Gaikowski (46:21)
purpose at scale is to be exceptional at empathy, but also to become exceptional at economics and to be able to talk both through the language of story and through the language of business.
Samuel Monnie (46:33)
Yeah, you know, as you're talking there, I'm thinking about during COVID. So there was this phenomena during COVID. COVID wasn't funny, so I'm not laughing at that because obviously a lot of people were harmed and it was challenging for everyone. But there was this phenomenon where halfway through COVID, you saw these TV ads where you'd see the CEO look into the camera like, we're there for you because we care about you.
Jason Gaikowski (46:56)
Purpose
washing. Purpose washing.
Samuel Monnie (46:58)
And all of a sudden these companies made it easy to cancel, easy to pause their subscriptions. If you weren't driving, they gave you refunds on the car and all of these things, which is like, wait, so you were making it hard before. Now you're making it easy because times are tough. Are you going to make it hard again when times are back to normal? So I think now, you know, we are now challenging the old, the former way because wait, you can, you can do the right thing. Why did, why?
Why do need a crisis to do the right thing? Or why do you stop doing more of the right thing when things go back to the way of work? So I think now we're becoming more conscious in different ways. like, for example, I think one of the biggest issues now in the world is return to office. A lot of companies have these return to office mandates. And I saw the CEO of AWS, Amazon Web Services, basically said, this is our policy. We're going to do it, whether you like it or not, because I said so. And I'm like, wait, you're one of the tech...
superstar companies and there is no evidence to support the return to office. There is no proof of extra productivity. In fact, there's more, more evidence saying you can be more productive not doing that. And your, your, your reason is because I said so there's literally no evidence to mandate a five day return to office. I'm thinking, darn it, why does purpose have to prove everything when the CEO can just say, you've got to be back five days with no evidence. And are we fine with that? So I think everything should be held to the same standards. If you're going to demand.
the highest bar for purpose. I'm going to define the highest bar for your return to office policy and mandate. Sorry, people watching this, because I made it hard for a lot of CEOs because they don't have the evidence, right? So why does purpose have to carry the burden of being better than better, know, proving all these things when other decisions, other factors that affect the world of work, that affect productivity, that affect profitability of an organization are done without the same
rigor and criteria. So I'm, as I say, I'm a purpose warrior and I'm going to argue an inconvenient truth. And now, yeah, so you return to work policy, you know what? Give me purpose. I'll come back to the office.
Laura Jones (49:06)
Absolutely. And I love that purpose warrior because you're absolutely right. Why should the case for things that we know actually already have so many positive metrics? We should apply that standard to everything. And the real question here is can capitalism grow a conscience? Right. It grew one pretty quickly. It sounded like during COVID. And so we all should hold companies
Samuel Monnie (49:30)
Right.
Laura Jones (49:36)
businesses, even ourselves to a higher standard of evidence-based and really question norms, question the status quo and make all of this just the norm that if there is a business case, if there's data, if there is great storytelling around it, let's not accept anything less than that. I I think we've coined another phrase here, Jason, you said it in not so many words, but.
Economic empathy, economic empathy sounds like, yeah, it sounds like something.
Samuel Monnie (50:06)
Mmm.
Jason Gaikowski (50:08)
The economics of empathy.
Samuel Monnie (50:10)
Yeah,
think JP Morgan just did this. think they did something. They've opened 100 branches in economically lower income areas. And I think Jamie Diamond said, we're doing it because it makes us money. It's the right thing to do, and it makes us money. And so even who gets banking support and who gets financial resources in their community has biases and disenfranchisement in it. And you can do that.
financially, fruitfully, plus also do the right thing. I just think economic empathy, just love following that through to like financial services. And so if the billionaire finance guy says, yes, this is money making, then I think there is biases against purpose because of a lack of empathy, not because of a lack of economics is the point I'm making. So this is why I want to change the language of marketing and remove some of the words, because if we have more empathy in how we communicate about these things,
Laura Jones (50:59)
Mmm.
Jason Gaikowski (51:01)
Yeah, I think.
Samuel Monnie (51:09)
then we don't just say, we got this product. We're thinking about the community. We're thinking about where we're getting our palm oil from. We're thinking about the supply chain. We're thinking about the workers in the factory and safety and all. We're thinking about ethics in when we're doing these things. So I think the language of business and marketing requires more empathy. requires more of that EQ. And this is why we call Purpose Hive, right? Purpose Hive, inspired by bees and bees as a community are amazing.
and what they do. It's actually a matriarchal society. as a guy, when you learn about bees, you suddenly think, darn it, damn, the guys are useless. Basically women do everything. They run the house, they do everything, they get the food, they get the water, they build honeycombs and everything. And the guys are just basically procreating. It's like, dudes, you're useless in the bee world. in mother nature, if you look at nature, nature doesn't make mistakes by and large, right? And so using...
biodiversity and just thinking about nature-based solutions and constructs, and therefore infusing the words of nature, the language of nature, using words like flourishing and hive and all these things in the world of business, I think helps us be more empathetic because when we get very quant statistical data-driven, we end up talking about, you know, let's reduce our costs or increase margin and you close down a plant and a community or you start.
polluting the water from, you because you're turning, you're releasing your toxic chemicals into the river. That's the consequence of this financial decision. Let's use words that communicate the real impact of what you're doing and you might think differently about it.
Laura Jones (52:48)
Love that. I mean, they don't call her Queen Bee for nothing, right? I mean, that is...
Jason Gaikowski (52:53)
Laura, let's make it clear, you are very much the boss of me. Right? And there's so much evidence in the world that the economics of empathy can be very, profitable. Right? mean, Magic Johnson's fortune is far more the result of opening Starbucks and AMC theaters in disadvantaged urban environments than from a Hall of Fame basketball career. Right? The evidence is everywhere. If only we have the willingness to look.
Laura Jones (52:57)
Hehehehe
Absolutely. Samuel Monnie any last final words about purpose? Purpose hive, where can people find you?
Samuel Monnie (53:33)
They can find me everywhere on the internet. You search Samuel Monnie you'll find me no So Purpose Hive, we're a strategic brand purpose consultancy. We love to do this work. We are passionate about what we do. We're passionate for building community as well. So you'll see us at events. You'll see us hosting events. So you can find us at purposehive.com, purpose-hive.com. You can find me on LinkedIn. So Samuel Monnie on LinkedIn is probably the best place to try and get hold of me. And if you're not already following me, you should.
and you, your inbox will be filled with wonderful ideas, stimulus and inspirations, because I do have a thing or two to say about all things, business marketing commerce with a, with a cue to purpose, but also with the idea of it being about making money and driving revenue. Right. So this is not just all about the, you know, ha ha ha, he, he, he is about, it's about real business and knowing that you can have a positive impact and be profitable.
Laura Jones (54:32)
Absolutely. Well, thank you so much for joining us. I hope you've had as much fun on Opinion Party as we have had having you and hope to see you again soon. Yes, take care.
Samuel Monnie (54:43)
I'll be back. If the people want it, I'll be back.
Jason Gaikowski (54:47)
Samuel, you've been great.
Absolutely fantastic. Thank you so much.
Samuel Monnie (54:50)
Thank you all.
Laura Jones (54:55)
So, purpose, have we pivoted, Jason? What do you think?
Jason Gaikowski (54:59)
Wow, I mean, I don't know about the pivot, but dang, purpose. That was awesome, Laura. That's great, great guest. Love that guy. Though I gotta confess, I now, I'm a bit inadequate here, like a reformed marketer on a mission to reform marketing. How good is that? My God, now I think it's, look, I think it's clear from the evidence, at least from my reading of the evidence, that purpose,
Laura Jones (55:17)
I mean, right? Right?
Jason Gaikowski (55:28)
can be really, really profitable when purpose is a business imperative, not a marketing campaign. That purpose washing can be damaging and destructive. But when you really bring it to the heart, to the strategy, to the supply chain, to the operating system of a business, there's a lot of profit there. And I think that's perhaps a lesson from history that we need to rediscover. What's your take?
Laura Jones (55:55)
Absolutely. I mean, I loved where we netted out really bringing it back to people and empathy and storytelling and getting back to how so many purpose-driven organizations and brands are started with just that in mind. How do we make people's lives better, enrich them, solve a problem that many people have or solve a problem for a few that actually then creates more universal good for many.
I love that we are constantly reminding ourselves as marketers, as business people, that ultimately more good in the world is good for everyone, right? And good growth. There is such a thing as good growth. We just have to work harder. I think we just have to work harder. That's my takeaway.
Jason Gaikowski (56:41)
Good growth is real.
Yeah, and I think re-embrace standards that maybe we've lost touch with. Like, if an organization can't answer the simple question, how are you making my life easier and better? Why would I ever pie you? Why would I ever prefer you? Like, if you don't know what your purpose is, I would encourage us all to figure it out pretty quickly.
Laura Jones (57:08)
Absolutely. And as we wrap it up here, I'll share my purpose with you, Jason. My purpose is to be such a beautiful soul that people crave my vibes at the highest level. I want to vibrate at the highest frequency. And I think everything else just just hangs off of that. And yes, I did steal that from a sign at my juice place. But I mean, it spoke to me. It spoke to me. And so that's what I strive for.
Jason Gaikowski (57:11)
my god, yes, let's do it, Laura.
that's amazing, Laura.
could never, I would never even hoped, I can't live up to your standard. I'm not gonna pretend that I can. Like, I'm just trying to help businesses get a little bit better. I'm just trying to help businesses figure out that it is a better investment in improving the human condition than the alternative, right? We can discover ways to do the things that are both the right thing and the smart thing.
Laura Jones (57:39)
Yeah
We can and we will, we're all in this together. Well, thank you all so much for joining Opinion Party. That wraps our episode on purpose. If you like what you heard today, please hit the subscribe button. And for any follow-ups on data or information on where you can get more access to Samuel, our guest, or Jason and I, just check out the show notes. And thank you so much and have a wonderful purposeful rest of the day.
Jason Gaikowski (58:28)
Thanks everybody, it's been great to see you again.
Creators and Guests


