Laura Jones (00:17)
everyone. Welcome back to Opinion Party. I'm your host, Laura Jones.

Jason Gaikowski (00:21)
I'm Jason Gaikowski.

Laura Jones (00:23)
And this is the podcast that dispels the most pervasive myths in modern marketing through the cold, cruel lens of data. And today we're going to have a little fun and talk about laughs or liability, the true value of brand humor. Got a great guest, an actual comedian, someone that's way funnier than Jason and I will ever proclaim to be. but Jason, what's, what's your take? mean,

Brands and humor, where's the data netting out?

Jason Gaikowski (00:56)
That's a great question, right? Like, does it pay to be funny? And, you know, when you look across our industry, what is pretty notable is sort of comedy and humor and brands, like, maybe reached a high point about 20, 25 years ago, seems to have fallen out of fashion. The data suggests that it's coming back into vogue.

Certainly, know, John Cook, our CEO, talked about humor at Cannes last year. And there is some evidence that the trend is kind of moving in that, back in that direction, right? When you look at the secondary research, you can see that maybe there's some fatigue around purpose that...

There's a desire for people to feel connected. And I think we cannot discount the outsize influence of social media and the environment of social, maybe biasing brands in the direction of embracing humor. Went down the rabbit hole.

There's some good data that suggests that there are some real benefits to leveraging humor in brand building. Research from Kantar suggests that you see very consequential upticks in receptivity, that humor makes ads more expressive and involving, maybe adds a little bit of distinctiveness. Some interesting research from Oracle says that you get about a 90 % bump on recall.

and a 72 % lift in likelihood to try a brand. That's pretty cool. 48 % of consumers feel a stronger connection with brands that make them smile or laugh, and about 91 % say they prefer brands to be funny. And among younger folks, Gen Z, that number is even higher at 94%. So it feels like there's some good tailwinds for this. Now...

As you and I both know, it's not like we have an attribute in VAV that says funny. Or even if I had an attribute in VAV that said funny, I don't know that I would trust it, right? Because humor is such a subjective topic. So.

The way we approached this is we went out and did a pretty big secondary research topic. We looked at what are the brands that are winning awards? What are the brands that are receiving significant recognition? What are the brands that are gaining the most traction in social media? And we were able to put together a list of 100 brands that are recognized in some way, shape, or form as really, really leveraging and embracing humor.

Now, not all brands are the same. You see, there's a pretty distinctive group. Let's call them top tier of about 10%. These brands are consistently funny. They're effectively funny. They seem to have really sort of made humor the core of what they do. You think about Geico. You think about Wendy's. Kind of all funny all the time.

Laura Jones (03:58)
Mm-hmm.

Jason Gaikowski (04:04)
Kind of a secondary level, let's call them 11 through 20 or so that are like pretty highly effective, not quite as good as the top tier. Jack in the box, Poo-Pourri, Liquid Death, you've got Mint Mobile and a lot of the Ryan Reynolds brands kind of floating around in that territory. Very effectively using humor. And then you've got kind of a third tier consistently humorous. Mountain Dew, Farmers Insurance, Reese's, Oreo, Starburst, Pop Tarts, right?

So we looked at this group of about 100 brands, and then we started analyzing them through BAV data. And there some pretty interesting trends that begin to stand out. Humor is really dominated mostly by three categories. You've got fast food, you've got Wendy's, you've got Burger King, you've got Jack in the Box, right? Like humor really seems to be something that fast food gravitates towards.

You've got candy and snacks. Now we can quibble whether that's one category or two, but for our purposes, we're saying candy and snacks, candy and snacks, whether it's cookies or Starburst, right? There's a big center of gravity and humor that you see in candy and snacks. And then one of these things is not like the other, you have insurance. Somehow fast food, candy, and insurance, those are your major humor winners in the brandscape. Now,

You see an interesting distribution of the funniest brands through the power grid. Interestingly enough, the funniest brands, about 58 % of them show up in the leadership quadrant. They're in the top half for strength, they're in the stop half for stature. Interestingly enough,

There are almost no representation in the unfocused or the momentum quadrants. You only see about a 3 % representation of generally low strength brands in low strength, stature in the unfocused category. And you see almost nobody, again, 3 % high strength, low stature. You see 38%, 37 % over in the fatigued, eroding quadrant. Now, you really see humor showing up around relevance and knowledge.

right? And what this begins to suggest to me is that humor may be a pathway for more established brands to break out of category norms, to gain differentiation.

to gain levels of esteem and restore balance. I think it's an interesting place. I think it's an interesting play. And while it is true that 58 % of the funniest brands in America are leadership brands, when you look at the total broad brandscape, only 2 % of leadership brands are consistently funny. So it's an interesting space. I can't wait to get into this with a.

Laura Jones (06:59)
Hmm.

Jason Gaikowski (07:04)
with our guest today, an actual comedian with a BAV background. I think this is going to be a fantastic conversation.

Laura Jones (07:10)
Yeah, let's bring out our friend Fumi. Fumi Abe, welcome to opinion party. Great to have you.

Fumi Abe (07:17)
Hello, thanks for having me. Excited to be here.

Laura Jones (07:19)
Yeah, absolutely. I'm going to give everyone just a little bit of grounding on you, your background and why you better than Jason or I are equipped to talk about funniness because you're an actual funny person. You are a Japanese American stand-up comedian, writer and podcast host, renowned for your sharp, relatable humor and insightful storytelling based in LA.

He's gained recognition for appearances on the Late Show with Stephen Colbert, The Tonight Show with Jimmy Fallon, as well as being featured in Vultris prestigious comedians you should and will know. That's very definitive in 2023 and selected for the Just for Laughs New Faces Showcase. Your comedy explores themes of cultural identity growing up as the child of Japanese immigrants, generational differences and the humor in everyday struggles. And you know, a whole host of accolades here suffice to say,

Fumi is bonafide funny and a rising star. And on top of all of that, happens to have worked as a BAV analyst back in the day. So it's great to have you back. And Fumi, let's kind of just jump right in because you've lived this fascinating double life in marketing and comedy. And just what's more painful to watch a brand trying to be funny or a comedian

bombing.

Fumi Abe (08:43)
Yeah, that's a good question. I was thinking about it while you guys were talking also by the way when you guys are talking about like power grids and stuff that really brought me back to like 2014 so thank you for that. That was really nice. yeah, you know, I I think I I'll probably have a different opinion about this because I think a lot of people who've attended attended comedy shows whether it's in barbers stand up and they're watching somebody, you know completely bomb

Laura Jones (08:54)
Yeah.

Fumi Abe (09:09)
They're very uncomfortable watching it, you know, but as somebody who like does stand up, I've been doing it for like over 10 years now. You know, I and I've also bombed I bomb a lot.

You know, especially when I'm working on new stuff or sometimes like there's not a lot of people in the audience and the vibe is weird and so you bomb everybody bombs, know, and so To me when I watch a comedian bomb like I know people are uncomfortable But hey, I think it's kind of funny because I know what that feels like but also there's something very beautiful about it because you know, there's just something so beautiful and funny about how like these people are like

Trying so hard to like connect with the audience and like chase this thing You know that is like cuz like stand-up is like you have to be so authentic. You have to be so real It's a it's a it's a live animal. I always say right it's not like you can't just like practice your Skit or bit or whatever in your room and just say it it's not gonna work. It's not a speech It is a live thing you're creating together and so this guy or whatever like this whoever this comedian person is just trying so hard to connect and it's just it's just not working

Laura Jones (10:04)
It is a live thing we do every day. And so the guy or whatever, whatever it is, he's trying so hard to connect, and it's just not working

at all for 10 minutes. It's just silent. And so to me, there's something so beautiful about this pursuit. So I like it. I like watching comedians on. It's like an extra-refreshing. But I could see that maybe the average person really likes that. But I think when brands try to do that stuff, it's,

Fumi Abe (10:15)
I like watching comedians bomb, you know, it's like nice and refreshing but I could see that, you maybe an average person wouldn't like that but I think when when brands try to do that stuff it's you know, and I think it's I'm actually curious to you know, hear more about like how you guys define funny in terms of brands and marketing and stuff because you know, sometimes I asked like can companies

Laura Jones (10:30)
You know, and I think it's... I'm actually interested to hear more about how you guys define...

and companies

really be funny because you like, if you, like before, I don't know, think of course everyone can be funny, but there's such a difference between like stand up and like comedy writing and like, you know, there is like an art to it and I think it's why there's an intent, you know, like what is your intent?

Fumi Abe (10:42)
really be funny because to me it's like if you like the whole point, I don't know. think of course everyone can be funny, but there's such a difference between like stand up and like comedy writing and like, you know, there is like an art to it. And the, I think it's a lot of it is like intent, you know, like what is your intent? Like, am I trying

to actually connect with you trying to relate to a stranger on some level? Right. And I think there's something really cool about that and like artistic about that. But I think a lot of times companies like the intent is like to make money.

Laura Jones (11:09)
The intent is like to make money,

Fumi Abe (11:11)
You know, so like there's such a limit. if it doesn't, if sometimes it's funny, but when it's not funny, it's really cringe because it's like, not only are you not funny, but I hate this. I hate this whole energy, you know? And so I think to me, that's like way harder to watch than

Laura Jones (11:11)
you know? So like, there's such a limit and if it doesn't, sometimes it's funny, but when it's not funny, it's really cringe. Because it's like, not only are you not funny, but I hate this. I hate this whole energy, you know? And so I think to me, that's like way harder to watch.

Fumi Abe (11:27)
somebody chasing their dream. And it's just not happening for them.

Laura Jones (11:31)
Yeah, completely. And Jason, why don't we set a little bit of stage for you talked about some awards potentially that we're using to say, Hey, brand's funny, not funny. What are we talking about when we're talking about can brands even be funny? mean, foomy, that's a really, really excellent point.

Jason Gaikowski (11:49)
You know, there's certainly work that's generally regarded as funny that gets recognized at Cannes and other creative award shows. A lot of the Wendy's work that we've been part of as part of that partnership has really received a lot of recognition. interestingly enough, the social voice of Wendy's for many, years was a large, redheaded, bearded man.

with a background in improv and stand-up comedy. And so I think there was something really bold and interesting about putting someone who was authentically funny in that role and then kind of getting the corporate shackles out of the way. Beyond that, it's really looking to like the DNAD pencil awards have a special category for humor. You see Webby awards around comedy and branded video content.

It's not as quantitative as I would like it, but there is a consistency of signals coming from a variety of sources that recognizes like, yeah, these brands are funny. Some of the times these brands are funny. most of the time, certainly, old spice, you know, the man you wish your man smelled like, pioneer to kind of abstract absurdist.

Geico, was really the leader in the insurance game to be more lighthearted and less serious. I happened to have had Allstate as a client back in the day and helped them through the pivot from you're in good hands with Allstate, very self-serious to more of the mayhem character. Right? So it's like, humor is so subjective and so situational. so.

ethereal, that it's hard to create a authoritative quantitative way to judge funny yes or funny no. Right? And so what you really just do is you look at the totality, the qualitative inputs and go, yeah, these guys seem to be, these guys seem to be funny and they seem to be having success with it.

Laura Jones (13:56)
Yeah.

Fumi, can you talk to us a little bit about your creative process? Obviously, having some sense of an audience is really important in creating and creating and writing humor. What have you learned from your creative process? And perhaps how might that be able to help marketers think about if they're endeavoring to become funny, what they should keep in mind?

Fumi Abe (14:22)
Hmm. Yeah, I mean, I think it like I have a general creative process but again like just a reminder like I I do stand up that is like my main thing and that's like comedy coming for so I'm also like not a marketer anymore. So maybe everything nothing I'm saying has value but you know, I like I'm always thinking like yeah, I'm always thinking like

Jason Gaikowski (14:32)
You

Once a marketer, always a marketer.

Laura Jones (14:40)
That's a good thing.

Fumi Abe (14:46)
ideas for me, like things that would be funny coming out of my mouth, not necessarily from like a brand. So like my creative process is like, I think like, you know, anybody who's like in the creative world, like you never can really stop working because you're just sort of like, you're just living life and something funny happens or like something makes you feel like you're having a conversation and maybe you feel anger or frustration and you find something interesting that. So I have like.

I have like a note, like a notepad app and I just like every day I just write down just like any, any idea that I have, like just, you know, this woman said this to me today. It's not even funny in that moment, but it made me feel something, you know? So I, I like just write down a bunch of that. And then every once in while, like I'll sit down and like, I'll just go over these notes. And then I just like talk to myself for like a while. I just walk around my room and I, and I try to just talk about it and figure out like why it bothered me or why I thought it was so funny or whatever. And then I just talk and then eventually I would just say something.

funny

and then I like write that down and I just kind of piece it together and then like that's how to how it like turns into a bit you figure out like different angles of like why it bothered you and then how you think it can like relate to the rest of the world or make it universal you know that's how I do it for stand-up particularly I think for like other types of writing like TV writing or like writing for other companies like you know it's it's similar like you're just always just sort of like observing life because essentially like

a joke or humor, especially if you're doing it from like a brand level, like it has to be like fairly universal. You know, it can't be too niche unless that's what you're trying to do. So it's really, really important to like live life. I think there was like a really famous Haruki Murakami quote. I don't know what it is exactly, but it was, it's something about how like, if you're just like staying in your room all day, like working, you're only going to be able to write about staying at home and working, you know? And so it's like really important to like,

Laura Jones (16:36)
So it's really important to

Fumi Abe (16:38)
Go to Hawaii or like whatever like go out there like go try different things go meet people you don't like You know go go do that thing that you're dreading like

Laura Jones (16:38)
go to Hawaii or whatever. Go out there, go try different things, go meet people you don't like. Go do that thing in your seven days.

Fumi Abe (16:47)
all that is like so important for for a comedy and inspiration

Laura Jones (16:51)
Yeah, Fumi, I think you said something that was really, really important there, which is I think about, and this is paraphrasing, things that would be funny coming from me, right? And that from a marketing perspective, from a brand perspective, knowing what your brand is, I mean, again, you would think it's just kind of like, huh, like we actually do a lot of character work with brands where...

we are looking at from a quantitative point of view, we actually use BAV attributes for this. And we're figuring out what is the right map that the data tells us to say, all right, what are the dimensions of how a brand could show up that could be differentiating or that can work against some of their equity goals. But then oftentimes we create a character out of that. And there could be many different ways to be a character. I mean,

You could be kind of a spy, right? But are you like 007 or are you MacGyver, right? There's very different ways that you would approach an audience or create content depending on what type of audience you are. So not only is it important to know your audience, it sounds like, but it's important to know yourself and to know what you can say and...

Fumi Abe (18:01)
100 %

Yeah, I think like the first step and I think this is something that a lot of like You know writers or comedians talk about they always say like what's your voice? know, what is that thing? What are your values? What is that thing that you stand for and that is so so important It takes a long time to discover that You know, you mentioned like old spice earlier like, know, they I think people think they're funny because they've been doing funny commercials for forever

You know, and I think like that you finally made that association. like, you know, I think a lot of companies be just because of the nature of the fact that it's a Fortune 500 company, like they don't they don't always know what their values are when it comes to like commercials. So, you know, like, for example, like.

Jason Gaikowski (18:30)
Hahaha.

Laura Jones (18:49)
You know, like, for example,

Fumi Abe (18:51)
You guys remember like the whole like Bud Light scandal with like Dylan Mulvaney. Do you remember that? Right? She was like a

Laura Jones (18:52)
like, you guys remember like the whole like fun like scandal with like the mobile games? can go to that. Yep.

Jason Gaikowski (18:55)
Yep.

Fumi Abe (18:57)
trance, you know content creator and then they got this backlash and then know Kid Rock shot some machine guns and they get scared that their market share was going down So what do they do? They part of Shane Gillis like the bro-iest, you know Eagles fan Really popular comedian who got who got like fire from SNL for like seeing something racist on podcasts or something and like

Laura Jones (18:59)
And then they got the sack last, then Kid Rock took some machine guns, and they got scared that their marketing was going down. So what do do? They, part of Shane Gillis, like the bro-iest, you know, Eagles fan, really popular comedian, who's on a fire from SNL, worked things on the way, just on the podcast or something. And like,

Fumi Abe (19:20)
Right and I like to stand up, know, but like it's just like They

Laura Jones (19:20)
right, and I don't like to stand up, you know, but like, it's just like...

Fumi Abe (19:24)
do a commercial with them just to appease the people that they upset So it's like you didn't even really want to support trans people Like what do you even stand for right? Like no one was asking Budweiser to be like super LGBTQ You know pro that nobody nobody was asking for that But they were just doing it because they were like, maybe we can make more money this way and they're like, never mind This is we're losing money. Let's let's shift gears and go back to like our original so it's like

Laura Jones (19:24)
They do a commercial with them just to appease the people that they accept. It's like, you didn't even really want to support trans people. What do you even stand for? No one was asking Budweiser to be super LGBTQ, pro that. Nobody was asking for that. they were just doing it because they were like, maybe we can make more money this way. And they're like, never mind. This is losing money. Let's shift gears and go back to our original. So it's

like, to me, I hate all that. You don't even know who you are. And if you don't know who you are, you cannot make

Fumi Abe (19:49)
To me, I hate all of that. It's like, you're not, don't even know who you are. And if you don't know who you are, you cannot be funny,

you know? And I think like most companies don't know who they are because again, they're just trying to make money. And so it's like impossible to find that. Some smaller brands can do it. especially if it's like a startup or something like that can like pull it off. think, you know, like liquid death, like, don't know if they're like funny, but like the concept of, you know, calling water liquid death is pretty funny. like,

Laura Jones (19:54)
And I think most companies don't know who they are because again, they're just trying to make money. So it's impossible to find that. Some smaller brands can do it, especially if it's a Starbucks or something like that. know, like Liquid Death, I don't know if they're funny, but they're awesome things. know, calling water a music thing.

Fumi Abe (20:17)
I think a lot of people are receptive to maybe a less serious commercial from those guys. But Bud Light, PNG, no one's expecting those guys to be funny. And I think it's hard, it's actually really hard for those guys to be funny just because of their motivations and stuff like that, that makes sense.

Jason Gaikowski (20:39)
Yeah. Well, I mean, you know, a couple of things, a couple of things that you said, you know, I think it's absolutely easier for a challenger brand, like to come in with some over the top humor, right? Dollar Shave Club being a classic example, right? When the category convention was all about like technology and the number of blade wars, you know, you've got this like really absurd, like

over the top funny video campaign that like really built that business. There's another thing in what you're talking about, right? Which is number one, knowing who you are, what's funny for me? And earlier you talked about a comedian bombing and you said they're authentic and they're really striving to connect.

But they're also taking a big risk. Like in order to be funny, you almost have to be willing to bomb sometimes. and like what, what, what I see with clients is they so desperately want to be authentic, but that's hard because they don't really know who they are. And they say that they want to connect based on marketing metrics, but it's hard to really connect if you can't be authentic, if you don't know who you are.

And then last but not least, the willingness to take a risk in order to forge an authentic connection. That's a big, big deal for marketers, right? And, you reminded me of a conversation a number of years ago with a client in the CPG space. They were hugely envious of the old spice work. They're like, I want ideas like old spice. Right. And we, we, we looked at the CMO and said, come on.

Like, are you really going to approve a piece of work where there's a shirtless black man on a horse saying absurd things? Like, if you guarantee me you are willing to approve that kind of work, I guarantee you our team will bring you that funny kind of work. Right? So this element of risk taking and willingness to bomb, I think it's something that marketers really, really have a hard time with.

Fumi Abe (22:45)
That's really good point because like failing and risking and bombing comes with the territory, right? And I think it's hard to convince bigger companies to be like, hey, we can try being funny, like, it might not work. You know, they don't want to hear that. You know, they're spending millions of dollars into this commercial. They don't want to hear that. They want a bulletproof thing. it's like, especially if you're not in the comedy space, like

Laura Jones (22:58)
We can try to be funny, it might not work. They don't want to hear that. They're spending millions of dollars on this. They don't want to hear that. They want a bulletproof thing. it's like, especially if you're not in the comedy space,

Jason Gaikowski (23:01)
Hehehehehe

Laura Jones (23:11)
you don't know how it's going to go down. Because you are a folk star. have to have a idea. So that's not the way to think of it. People want the right result without the worst thing.

Fumi Abe (23:11)
We don't know how it's going to go down because you are a soap brand. We have no idea like right so that's that's a really interesting point like people Yeah, it's it's the classic like they they want the result without the risk and the work,

Jason Gaikowski (23:17)
Right?

Fumi Abe (23:24)
you know, and know old spice I'm sure not all their commercials were hit, you know, right? But they've like they spent years building this sort of brand as like the goofy brand and so like yeah, that's a that's a that's a good that's an interesting point

Jason Gaikowski (23:38)
yeah. mean, the Hellman's, the Hellman's mayo cat work from this rule last year. I think it's funny as hell. My wife thinks it's atrocious and dumb. Right. And that creates a really interesting dilemma for marketers.

Laura Jones (23:51)
And you bring up a great point, which is just the notion of subjectivity, right? And what's funny to some people is not some people's idea of a good time. Do you think a brand or even a comedian does, is there only one brand per entity of funny or can brands or people operate? Can you have multiple voices? I guess is what I'm asking.

Sure. So it's really important, as you said, to have a voice and a singular voice sounds like is a way to be consistent with finding your audience, finding humor. But what if you're a massively targeted brand that has a whole bunch of different people and they ostensibly have a whole bunch of different tastes when it comes to comedy? Do you think a brand can vary its voice or

play humor on different levels or does that voice in the comedy arena have to be completely consistent?

Fumi Abe (24:53)
Mmm

I think, are you asking if a brain can take on multiple comedic voices or just different voices? Okay. Yeah, think it's...

Laura Jones (25:03)
Yes, multiple comedic voices.

Fumi Abe (25:11)
I think there has to be some sort of common thread. was just like, you know, I was reading your outline and it's so funny because like, I don't even really watch commercials anymore because I pay for YouTube premium. And like that's typically where I like used to get commercials. And then I just updated by Netflix. So don't get commercials on there either. you know, like I remember my girlfriend was telling me about this commercial that she saw that it was from PNC, the bank. And it was like the family is like trying to, you know, figure out ways to like build wealth and the mom.

has taken up the responsibility of being a finance bro. So she's wearing a vest and she's got multiple computers at the dinner table. And while they're eating dinner and the kids are talking about school, she's teaching the kids about penny stocks or something. And then the button is that we cut to PNC Bank, a bank teller, and she goes, or you could just work with us or something. And then the whole thing is you don't have to do the work. PNC Bank will do it for you. And the joke is the mom goes, OK, cool, but I'm still keeping the vest. That's the last joke.

PNC is like a bank, you know, but that that was pretty funny and like pretty lighthearted. And I think sometimes a category like finance can be so daunting for a lot of people that something like that may make someone with some money who doesn't know anything about investment be like, maybe I'll look into that, you know, so like if they want to do that kind of thing for different targets, whether it's Gen Z or elder millennials who just never really

Laura Jones (26:24)
They make someone with some money who doesn't know anything about investment. I'll give you a look into that. So if they want to do that kind of thing, for different private, whether it's Gen Z or elder millennials.

Fumi Abe (26:38)
But you know, depending on like if you want to break that into like different demos or whether it's based on age gender or or class or whatever I think you could make a Series like that commercial could be a series but like do slightly different jokes to appeal for different ages I think you do stuff like that, but I think it would be unwise for like

Laura Jones (26:45)
You know, like, depending on, like, if you want to break that into, like, different demos, or something like that.

Fumi Abe (27:06)
You know for Gen Z do like a partnership with Addison Rae or whoever the new tik tok person is and then like for boomers you do a thing with like George Bush or something like that would make any sense, right? Like don't like and then that would cost you so much money But like like stuff like that wouldn't make any sense. So I think you can do like different strategy but like I think just just to preserve your like again Proving to people constantly, you know who you are as a brand. You have to have some some common thread

Laura Jones (27:15)
like George Bush or something. That would make sense. Like, stuff like that would have made sense. So I think you can do like different strategies, like, think just to preserve your rights, again, proving to people...

Jason Gaikowski (27:18)
you

Laura Jones (27:35)
some comment here.

Fumi Abe (27:36)
Maybe that common thread for PNC Bank is like, don't be afraid or something, you know, like maybe it's like, finance is not that scary, maybe that's your common message and you can have different

Laura Jones (27:36)
Maybe that comment's a bit too big. Don't be afraid. something. it's like, science is unnecessary. Maybe that's your common message.

Fumi Abe (27:44)
comedy ideas based on that, you know, but it can't, it can't be like, you know, don't be afraid for Gen Z and then for the older people, like have something else for the one percenters, you know, that, that, that's like conflicting messages, if that makes sense.

Laura Jones (27:58)
Yeah, so sounds like having a premise and then being able to do a variation on the theme would work. And I think that's solid advice because obviously with comedy or with any other culturally relevant type of messaging, you're going to have to be reactive and like you said, observing what's going on and agile and changing. So, but having a structure.

that works and that can be flexible, sounds like is a good strategy for that. You were talking like someone who knows a thing or two about marketing, Fumi.

Fumi Abe (28:36)
I think about the power grid once a day. It really helps me get through life. It's so cool that it's still happening, you know Yeah, all the historical data

Laura Jones (28:40)
30 years 30 years and going going

strong. actually speaking of let's talk let's talk about insurance for a while. I mean, Jason, you mentioned I think it's kind of funny not funny that insurance brands the most dull, boring, no one wants to think about a category actually use a ton of humor. And they have created a bunch of characters, iconic characters.

Jason Gaikowski (29:07)
Yep.

Laura Jones (29:08)
characters that have been consistent over time. What do you think works about comedic characters for brands? Why do think that's such a popular technique?

Jason Gaikowski (29:19)
Well, it's one of a couple styles that you kind of...

Fumi Abe (29:20)
Mmm.

Jason Gaikowski (29:26)
be able to kind of break the different brands into different sort of comedic styles or comedic approaches. You know, one of those is kind of more situational comedy, right? And you can think about State Farm and the work that I've certainly seen a lot of with Patrick Mahomes and, you know, Kelsey, Kelsey Auto Insurance for Home and Auto, which is, you know, which is kind of, which is kind of funny, depending on your sense of humor.

State Farm and Geico both hit that situational comedy thing. Progressive with Flo, that's just a funny character. Far more character-based. Geico plays it both ways with recurring characters and situational comedy skits. Fumi, what do you think? What are the insurance companies doing right, doing wrong?

Fumi Abe (30:19)
I don't know if you guys have the answers to this, but I am curious to know if Being funny as an insurance company actually makes a difference In the like the signup numbers or the clients that they take because I think similar to like gas stations People just want the cheapest auto insurance, right? You know, like when I I lived in New York for 13 years I didn't drive at all when I moved to LA I had to get a car and

Jason Gaikowski (30:41)
You

Fumi Abe (30:49)
Yeah, like of course I looked at like Geico because I just, know, their commercials are so prevalent and stuff like that. But I just called all of them and I went with the cheapest one because it's like, it's LA and it's so expensive out here. So it's that's, know, it's like, I guess they're trying to do it because it's one of those things where like insurance, like everybody has to have it. Like if you have a call, have to have insurance. So think they're, I think their goal is not to be hilarious. And it's more about like, kind of like,

I think I don't think Geico is a funny brand. just think it's like that little guy is like cute and he feels more like Welcoming in a way like welcoming accessible if that makes sense I know there's that one insurance company mayhem. Which one is that?

Jason Gaikowski (31:22)
You

Mayhem is all state.

Fumi Abe (31:38)
Allstate. Yeah,

Laura Jones (31:38)
Yeah.

Like that guy, that guy is scary. He's like dying. I don't know why he keeps doing that. I'm not sure if it's worth it. He's like always dying. so like, you know, I actually did not call a state.

Fumi Abe (31:40)
like that guy, that guy is scary. You know, he's always like, he's like dying and these, don't know why they keep doing that. I'm not sure if it's working for them. He's like always dying. And so like, you know, I, that's why I actually did not call all state when I was looking up car insurances, but, you know, like Jake from state farm, he's just like a nice looking guy, you know, like your friendly neighbor. Like, I don't think these people are trying to be funny. I think they're just trying to like make it's all about like awareness. And I think sometimes like

Jason Gaikowski (31:42)
Hahaha!

Fumi Abe (32:06)
Comedy is a really good way to spread awareness if it's funny in the way that like the was app commercial was like an insane thing for awareness Right, like I knew what Budweiser was when I was 10 because of that commercial, you know And I didn't know any other beer brands until much later when I could drink legally, you know, so You know, I think that's like kind of the goal for insurance companies

Jason Gaikowski (32:14)
Yeah.

Yeah, well, it's you know, our insurance is, I mean, they're interesting as a category, though not unique as a category in that the product is really hard to differentiate, right? Because of regulatory requirements, it's really hard to differentiate on product. It's really hard to differentiate on price because the entire market is so price competitive and price sensitive and subject to regulatory requirements.

Fumi Abe (32:36)
you

Jason Gaikowski (32:58)
It's expensive and hard to differentiate on experience. And so, you know, we do see from Kantar and other research that comedy gets you more engagement. Comedy gets you more receptivity to the message. Comedy gets you higher levels of propensity. It gets you higher levels of persuasion, particularly among younger audiences.

And historically, Geico has been the singular strongest, highest-strength, highest-statured brand in advertising, in part because they were the first to move away from more of a we are trusted institution that you can rely on in almost a paternalistic fashion.

They seem to be the first to recognize that like, yeah, I can trust every insurance company. So I don't have to talk about that. I can be lighthearted. 15 minutes can save you 15 % or less. So easy. Caveman can do it and really change the trajectory that the entire sector now seems to be on.

Laura Jones (34:08)
Yeah. So Fumi, you mash up a lot the concepts of cultural identity and humor. And I'm curious how you think about those two things when you're figuring out how am I going to be connected with an audience and make it funny versus where's the line to cross? Because I think a lot of brands would like to use humor.

but also like to connect with people on that more intimate kind of identity based level, but can be a really, really tough needle to thread. So what are some of the techniques that you do to be able to do that?

Fumi Abe (34:50)
Hmm.

you say that, are you talking about like brands wanting to do something for like a specific culture? Is that what you mean? Or does it? OK. Yes, I understand the concern. I feel like sometimes these companies feel like.

Laura Jones (34:59)
Yes. Yes.

Fumi Abe (35:12)
What you know, there's they put a lot of pressure on those stuff like well, what does? Geico want to say about dwali or something and again Nobody is asking for that right? Like if you want to like do a commercial for dwali like just partner with like a funny Indian person, know Or whatever whatever whatever that culture you're talking about like just do like a celebrity endorsement

It doesn't have to be celebrity. could be like an influencer. Let them be funny. And then like you just your logo is in the background and people be like, they did like, did you see that Mindy Kaling thing that she did with Geico? Like, you know, it'll just spread because Mindy Kaling is funny. And then like you can just offload this responsibility of like, did we get every single detail correct? You know, because then you're not saying anything about Indian people, every Indian people. Right. You're just saying like this one partner, this one celebrity Mindy Kaling is like this.

Right.

think that's like the thing is like sometimes when companies try to be like, yeah, we know what it's like to be Asian. You know, it's like that's a crazy thing to say or do. Nobody again, nobody's asking for that. But if you did something with like Ronnie Chang on like a specific product, you know, you can like speak to that group without kind of bearing the responsibility for like accuracy and stuff like that, because we're just saying like, like Ronnie does it this way.

Laura Jones (36:07)
Yeah, we know what it's like to be Asian. know? It's like, definitely a crazy thing to say or do. Nobody's asking for that. But if you did something with, like, Ronnie Chang on, like, a specific topic.

Jason Gaikowski (36:10)
Hahaha

Fumi Abe (36:29)
And that's it. That's all you're saying, you know, and I think a lot of people do it the same way. Ronnie does it for Chinese New Year, whatever you're trying to do. But, know, you can just sort of like relieve yourself of that responsibility. think people make the mistake of like, you know, they use some kind of somebody, some like regular commercial actor. And then you think you're making a statement about Kwanzaa or whatever. You know, it's like people just get like, I think people don't like the intent of that. This intent of like, you know, we're.

We're trying to reach everybody in the specific segment that we're trying to talk to. And it's like, that's impossible. You don't know us, you know? And just being real about that, I think, would be helpful.

Laura Jones (37:07)
Yeah, authenticity seems like it's a really important tenet of comedy.

Fumi Abe (37:10)
Yeah, and I think like authenticity but also like specificity, know, like if you're really specific You can be universal and then you're not claiming to know the experience of every Japanese American like I always like

emphasize like this is my life, you know And a lot of people do relate with the things i'm going through but some people not everyone Is a japanese person who grew up in the midwest, you know, some people grew up in california or new york and they had a completely different upbringing than me, you know, and so like

I would never claim to speak for all Asian Americans or whatever. I just say like, this is my life and I hope you relate. And I hope that non-Asian people relate too. That's ultimately the goal. And I think that they do. like, yeah, I think like just reaching university through specificity is like such like a thing. I cannot stress enough for anything that is like creative related, you know.

Laura Jones (37:46)
And I hope that's not major.

Absolutely. You said earlier, I don't watch commercials. I've got YouTube premium, but you then you also just brought up the concept of influencers. It sounds like an influencer marketing. How have you seen the worlds of influencer marketing and social and comedy and brands kind of collide from your side of things of being a content creator?

Fumi Abe (38:22)
Yeah, that's interesting. I did say that but you're right like I am seeing commercials through like spawn con and like that kind of stuff on my feed Yeah, brands are getting sneaky man, they're they're paying my they're paying my friends to Advertise, I don't know whatever Logan Paul's stupid drink is Yeah, I'm sorry what was the question

Jason Gaikowski (38:33)
Hahaha!

Laura Jones (38:46)
Yeah, are your thoughts on that? Is it a good thing for comedy? Is it a good thing for brands? What's best way to go about that?

Fumi Abe (38:51)
I

Yeah, I think it's a good thing for brands in terms of like I mean I think any person under 35 will be lying if they say they haven't ever bought like pants from an Instagram ad You know, you see like some sort of like cool pants from like some fake Japanese company You're like, yeah, that sounds sweet and then you like, you know You're like putting in your credit confirmation on Instagram buying it for like 90 dollars. So it definitely I think it is effective

Simply because a lot of people are not seeing commercials in the traditional way that they used to. then, yeah, think targeted ads and sponsored content through influencers and stuff, it just feels less commercially. But although I do think it's changing. I don't know about Gen Z, because I'm a little older, but I feel like people in my generation, we can sort of suss out, is this model really into this brand, or is she just getting paid $30,000 to say this kind of thing?

We're past that initial phase where it was like, this is so cool. It's like a new medium. I'm getting influence from these sponsored content or whatever. But now it's like everybody's doing it. So you have to kind of step back and think like, is this model actually care about these particular sandals that she's wearing or whatever? But I like it. I like it. It's like little micro economy on its own. And a lot of times like.

I think people follow influences and stuff because you know, they're aspirational you want to be more like them and so you can see them wearing stuff and I don't know like there's something about like shooting in your iPhone camera that Makes you believe like that. The product is real if that makes sense Like it's not photoshopped it's shot on your stupid phone in your in your bedroom She's got the same phone you have so like the shirt must look like that, you know There's more of like it's like more authentic in that way. I think that in a way that that's like effective but

Laura Jones (40:38)
There's more of like, it's like more authentic.

Fumi Abe (40:44)
Yeah, I mean, I mean I'm for I did a thing for Harry's once Harry's the shaving company. I can't even grow facial hair, you know Like I'll do it. They pay me 10,000. I'll do it again, you know happily like you know, I as a Somebody who partakes in sponsored content sometimes I'm I'm for it. I like money

Jason Gaikowski (40:50)
Hahaha!

Laura Jones (41:03)
Amazing amazing you talked about a little bit of the evolution right? How are we gonna continue to fool the next generation of capitalist? recruits, but in all seriousness we talked a little bit about AI in a pre-show conversation and how Everyone seemingly now is tapping into it relying on it for some aspect what's the conversation about I AI outside of it's gonna steal all our voices and You know

Jason Gaikowski (41:03)
Ha ha ha.

Laura Jones (41:32)
We hate it and unions. What's conversation in comedy world? How are you comedians using it for good for evil?

Fumi Abe (41:40)
Yeah, I think like just from like Just my own personal Perspective like it's not like I've tried it because I've been interested in it but it's certainly not good enough to like it cannot write a good joke for you like it might help you write like a pawn or like if you want to Write like a very corporate Instagram caption. It's very good at that very like soulless, you know

Jason Gaikowski (42:04)
Hahaha

Fumi Abe (42:06)
So like I don't think it can really do anything at this point but that said like I think there was I got like an email from the division recently about how like I think it's been proven that some companies have been like feeding scripts to to make this machine smarter even though they're not supposed to because that's our IP. I'm starting a new job in January. That's like for like a TV show like TV writing and then they made me sign like a thing that said like I won't use AI or like all right, you know, or like they made me sign a thing and I remember like

When I signed a similar contract for like a different writing job in 2021, like we didn't have chat GBT back then, or it wasn't readily available. So there was no document like that. I think. You know, production companies and showrunners are like taking it very seriously. I don't think they're like afraid that writers are going to be lazy and just use chat GBT because again, like the ideas on there are not good yet. so it's, it's not going to replace writers, but it's like this concept of like, if I upload a script to get ideas, then now the machine has.

IP that you know Universal has been working on or whatever. So that's I think that's where the conversation is I mean, I don't know it's this I was talking to like a writer friend of mine and like this is such like a writer II thing to say but you know if like it cannot it's not good right chat dpd is not good for Comedy or like creative work as of right now but if it gets to a point where like it can just in a in five seconds spit out a script

That's as good as like, you know, something like Michaela Cole's like, may destroy you in HBO. don't know if you see that like any of these shows that are like truly incredible, iconic, like changing the way we're doing comedy, changing the way we're doing drama. If it can write something like that, then it's like not even then it's no longer a question about like, Hey, I stealing my ideas. It's more like that AI is conscious. And so this is wrong.

Laura Jones (44:00)
And so this is that.

Fumi Abe (44:02)
Because now this is like slavery, you know what mean? Like if it can feel like a human and like write something that would make you cry you read it like this is so beautiful then it understands what we understand as humans and then it's like no longer, you it's not a conversation about like Can this AI do my PowerPoint? It's more like we need to Release the AI like we need to help them or something, you know So I feel like I don't know I feel like comedians and writers like

Laura Jones (44:02)
Because now this is like slavery. You know what mean? Like, if they can feel like a human and like write something that would make you cry, you need it like to instill people, then it understands what we understand as humans. Then it's like no longer, right? It's not a conversation about like, Tennessee, I think that's hard for you. Well, like, we need to reduce AI. Like, we need to help them or something, you know? So I feel like, I don't know, I feel like we need to do something like this.

Fumi Abe (44:25)
talk about it in that way from like a legal standpoint But also from like a morality standpoint

Laura Jones (44:30)
Yeah, there's definitely something that's lost, right? And as people that write for a living like yourself and then people that pretend to write because they work in advertising, like us, you know, there is something about the process of being human that comes out in thinking about the ideas and the collaborating. mean, you just said you're going to be joining a writer's room, right? Just what happens when

brains bump up against one another and ideas come out and what's lost, not just in terms of wages and innovation, but humanity when people are no longer coming together to create. yeah, that's a harrowing view into the future. And, you know, I think something that we as marketers are also probably going to be quite responsible for, if you think about the ways in which

various groups were depicted in marketing and advertising such as women, et cetera, and the impact that it had on countless generations of people and body images and all of that and social media and marketers are very much complicit in the social media economy, that being one of our main channels. And so this is definitely a next frontier that we all, I think have the responsibility to play a very active role.

in shaping. There's nothing funny about that at all, actually. I don't know why. I just went off on that little bit of a ramp, but I do think, I do think it's important.

Fumi Abe (45:59)
No AI is dark man, AI

Jason Gaikowski (46:00)
Hahaha

Fumi Abe (46:05)
is dark

Laura Jones (46:07)
all right. So I guess, you know, let's, if you had to go back into the, marketing world, you were brand manager send on this one and, your remit was just create, create funny moments, get, get eyeballs. What is the one channel or medium that you would create in? What would be your, your fate? What's your favorite for comedy? Can you even pick one?

Fumi Abe (46:36)
favorite

medium for comedy for brand okay I mean I feel I feel like it's like all social media now you know I mean that's not like a unique answer but

Laura Jones (46:38)
for a brand.

You have a favorite,

you have a favorite.

Fumi Abe (46:54)
I hate all of them Laura. I hate all of them. wish I I wish we never had tik-tok and reels, know, like it has made careers, but it's just like it's just so I don't know I was talking about this with a friend yesterday and I'm honestly I don't know if you guys have done like baby studies on this but I feel like you know the BB model really You know, we we talk up differentiation right like you got to be unique, you know, but

Laura Jones (46:55)
Yeah, where do you, do you, yes.

Jason Gaikowski (46:59)
Where are you putting your budget, Foomy? Where are you putting your budget?

Fumi Abe (47:22)
I actually feel the opposite about like Tik Tok and and like social media, you know, because I feel like if it's not shareable, it cannot go viral. so like relevance is so important. And it doesn't even have to be an original idea. Right. Like what is a trend? You just do somebody else's joke and then it goes viral because you're wearing a different outfit. Like, but that's how people get famous. You know, you go get famous with doing other people's dances. So it's like, it's this weird thing of like, I don't even know if that

I mean, you know, it's not a hard person to time, but I don't even know if like, it'd be interesting to look at like a different slight variation of the BV model for TikTok and Instagram Reels specifically in terms of like success, because if you're too different, they're like, this is weird. And they just move on. They just want to see, you know, people are kind of basic, I think is what we're finding out through these apps. Like people just like, they're not that unique and they just kind of want to see the same thing over and over again. And so.

Laura Jones (48:16)
So,

Fumi Abe (48:18)
Yes, so going back to that. Yeah, I guess Well, tiktok is you know gonna be banned I guess in like two days or whatever So I guess like stick with an american company like instagram

Laura Jones (48:18)
yes, so going back to that, yeah, I guess, well, TikTok is, you know, gonna be bad, I guess, in like two days or whatever. So I guess, like, staying with our American company, I guess.

Fumi Abe (48:27)
shout out shout out to meta yeah, I would do something on instagram reels, I guess

Jason Gaikowski (48:32)
Yeah, I mean, I think, you know, if I reframe a little bit about what we've learned through BAB, if you want mass exposure, right, what you really want to lean into is relevance and esteem. You want to figure out what people like and what's relevant, and then just play that hand, right? And so hijacking a successful concept, doing it yourself with a slightly different shirt and your very handsome Asian American persona, and like, you can go viral.

I can't, Laura can't, let's just be really clear about these things. But you do, but, but, but you... We'll try that, we'll try that, we'll connect after the holidays, we'll run that experiment. But then, but then, what I'm gonna suggest however is sufficient differentiation still matters. Because if...

Fumi Abe (49:06)
You could you know, you could you could have a thing you're like the old guy who does it or whatever You know, like I swear to God I swear to God dude, like it doesn't even matter It doesn't like it doesn't matter. Yeah

Jason Gaikowski (49:31)
only old guys did it, it would get played out really, really quickly. But doing the thing that is relevant that people like, doing it as an old guy, that's the differentiation that really makes it strong and lets it grow. And so I do think even the lens of BAV, differentiation, relevance, esteem, knowledge, super relevant, super important for brands to break out, comedic or no, in social media.

Fumi Abe (49:47)
Mm-hmm, mm-hmm.

Jason Gaikowski (49:58)
and to build strong, healthy, healthy growing brands. So.

Laura Jones (50:03)
Yeah, you're both right.

I will bring this home with one of the principles of improv, which is yes and yes, differentiation and relevance. And with that, I think we've all sufficiently insulted one another and it's time to go. So, Fumi, it was so amazing to have you. Thank you so much. Where can everyone find you?

Jason Gaikowski (50:12)
Ugh, gross.

Fumi Abe (50:16)
Ha ha ha ha

Jason Gaikowski (50:23)
Damn.

Laura Jones (50:33)
out in the world if they wanna know more about Fumi.

Fumi Abe (50:36)
Yes, please follow me on all the socials. I post a lot of stand-up videos on there You can follow me on instagram and tiktok at the foomy abe. Let's spell t h e f umi a b e I'm also on tour so if you live in a city in america, i'll probably be coming to your city. So please go to foomy abe.com and you can see my tour dates. I'm coming to like dallas dc san francisco charlotte all kinds of places. So please check me out

Laura Jones (50:53)
you

Fumi Abe (51:05)
if you liked what I said, and come see me live, and support me financially.

Laura Jones (51:09)
Amazing. Brands, brands hit them up, hit them up. Thank you so much Fumi.

Jason Gaikowski (51:10)
Awesome

Fumi Abe (51:16)
Thank you so much.

Jason Gaikowski (51:17)
Thanks Fumi

Laura Jones (51:21)
All right, Jason.

Jason Gaikowski (51:23)
I mean, he's a great party guest.

Laura Jones (51:25)
Right? I mean, who doesn't want a comedian at their party? Yeah, a lot can be learned for people that create art for a living and from people that create art for a living, from people who are creating art for a living on behalf of brands. Fascinating conversation. I think we learned a lot.

Jason Gaikowski (51:27)
Love that guy.

Laura Jones (51:47)
about partnerships and how partnerships are really important in the world of comedy and also the world of branding, right? sometimes it's just your voice is just not gonna land that joke. You need a partner. You need someone who can put it in a way that is gonna go a lot farther faster. So big fan of brand partnerships in the comedic world. And what are your takeaways, Jason?

Jason Gaikowski (52:14)
Well, I mean, think that humor may pay. I think that making people laugh is a good angle, at least at a campaign level for a lot of brands. Be engaging, be friendly, be authentic, be fun loving. And I think that there's some benefits that brand can accrue. But beyond that, don't think that comedy is a silver bullet for every brand.

because it takes a level of self-awareness and frankly, a level of risk to forge those sort of authentic comedic connections that really build equity and develop relationships. And I'm just not sure that's the right strategy for every brand, but it's certainly the right strategy for many brands.

Laura Jones (53:01)
Absolutely. Be specific to be universal. think that was one of my favorite takeaways from Fumi.

Jason Gaikowski (53:04)
be specific to be universal.

Laura Jones (53:07)
well that's about it. Wrapping up this party, thanks everyone for joining. If you want to know more information about Fumi, standup, or any of the data that we talked about today, check us out at theopinionparty.com. And if you like what you heard, please subscribe and share it around. And we will talk to you next time.

Jason Gaikowski (53:28)
Thanks all, we'll see you next time.